Overcoming People Pleasing and Stepping Into Your Power -21

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Marli Williams [: 00:00:00

Well, hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Marli Williams podcast, where this week I am hanging out with my incredible mentor, Marla Mattenson. Marla is the founder of the Ethical Sales Institute. She has been an entrepreneur for over 20 years, and this is a conversation not to be missed. We talk about overcoming people pleasing as an entrepreneur and as a leader. We talk about what to charge and how to value your coaching and your work in the world and how to show up more powerfully as a tenderhearted leader using the ethical sales process in your life as a leader, as a business owner, and an entrepreneur. So, I cannot wait to dive into this incredible conversation with you. I can't wait to hear what your golden nuggets are, so let's freaking do this. Here we go.

Marli Williams [: 00:00:56

Hey, everyone. What's happening? I am super stoked to welcome you to the Marli Williams Podcast, where we will explore authentic leadership, transformational facilitation, and how to create epic experiences for your audiences every single time. I am your host, Marli Williams, bringing you thought provoking insights, expert interviews, and actionable strategies to unlock your potential as a leader, facilitator, and speaker. Thank you for joining me on this journey of growth, transformation, and impact. Let's Lead Together. The Marli Williams Podcast begins now. Let's dive in.

Marli Williams [: 00:01:38

Alright, everybody. I would love to welcome you back to the Marli Williams Podcast, where I am freaking stoked because today, I'm hanging out with my mentor, my friend, Marla Mattenson, who is the founder of the Ethical Sales Institute. She is a phenomenal mentor, coach, and guide to me, and someone who I have learned so much from over the past year, and I'm just so, so, so grateful that you are here on the podcast today.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:02:11

Yay. I'm super stoked.

Marli Williams [: 00:02:15

So stoked. It's the Marli and Marla show.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:02:18

I love it. I wanted to do this for a while.

Marli Williams [: 00:02:20

I know. Here we go. Here we go. Well, I would love just to give you an opportunity for you to share with the audience as they get to know you before we dive into our conversation today of what your work is in the world. One of the things that we've talked about is epic leaders need epic mentors. And you have been such an epic mentor for me. And I'm just excited to introduce you and your work to this community because you're such a force to be reckoned with, and you are someone that I feel like everybody needs to know and learn from. So, tell the people. Tell the people what you do, what you're up to, how they can learn from you, all the things, and then we'll dive in.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:03:02

Okay. Sounds good. Well, I love that. Epic leaders need epic mentors, and I have had some epic mentors in my life. I have always had epic mentors. Everything from in the doula world when I was helping women through labor, delivery, and postpartum, I had 2 mentors who held a women's circle that I joined in my early twenties talking about the birds we were in in postpartum and just gaining wisdom. And then I had another mentor, Brew Joy, who was a former medical doctor turned spiritual guru guide, and everybody in that group was older than me. He passed away in 2009, but his work is still proliferating onto the world.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:03:48

And I'm one of the youngest people at almost 53 in that group of people who are still following his teachings. And so, over my whole lifetime, I have had incredible mentors, and I highly value the mentor-mentee apprentice type relationship, whether there's financial exchange, where you're paying for mentorship or where there is a time, energy, and attention exchange where there's no finances being exchanged. What's being exchanged is actually the wisdom, the lived wisdom. And so, I have been an apprentice for so many different people over the years just to learn from them. So, now what do I do? I have a business that we have 3 branches. We've got the Ethical Sales Institute. We have the Intimacy Experts brand, which is all about private work with executive coaching clients, bringing intimacy into their companies for innovation and leadership and feedback systems, and also doing private work with private clients on their business and their relationship. And then we have the Marla Mattenson brand, which has mentorship for women on a spiritual journey who are successful and know that there's more for them and want to take the spiritual route to compress time, to time bend, to be there. So, and that's my speaking career also in the Marla Mattenson brand. So, we can go wherever you want.

Marli Williams [: 00:05:16

Wow. I love that. I just I love that theme of epic leaders need epic mentors, and I appreciate you just sharing, like, the people that have influenced you and that have impacted you. And I think that that is one of the ways that I have grown over the years is, like, finding people that someone who's a good mentor, it's like they see the greatness inside of you, and they see what's possible for you. They can hold that space for you to learn and grow and expand. And I have had different mentors show up in my life at the right times, and for you to show up in my life when you did as I was navigating some really, really deep wounds and really big challenges around people pleasing, around disappointing people, holding boundaries, like, all these things. And I'm just so grateful for you and your guidance and your mentorship as I have navigated those challenges.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:06:13

Thank you so much. You mentioned people pleasing, and that is one of my main topics that I love to talk about because I think that most of us, I would venture to say almost all of us, except for probably sociopaths, are people pleasers in some way because we never say exactly what we mean. We soften it a little, you know, to make it palatable for the people we love and care about. We don't want to intentionally hurt or harm anybody. However, I have come to understand that people pleasing is the highest form of lying. It is lying to say yes, when you mean no. To let somebody cross a boundary when you don't want them to. And so, I have made my life's path about helping people move through and beyond people pleasing. It's that important.

Marli Williams [: 00:07:06

And I remember the first time you told me that. And I was like, woah. I'm a liar. What? You call me a liar. And then I was like, it is so true. That idea that people pleasing is the highest form of lying because you're not being honest with yourself and that other person. And to me, for so long, it created this illusion of safety and connection. Like, if I could just give everybody everything that they want or everything that I think that they want, then I will be loved. Then I will be liked. Then people will respect me and say yes to me. Even in the sales process, like, what else can I do? What else can I do? What else can I give you? And this overextending, over giving, because it was so terrifying to disappoint people, to let someone down, to say no. And learning, I think what I really got was the cost of it. Like, I always kind of knew I had it, but, like, then it just blew up all in my face. It was like, see? This doesn't work anymore.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:08:23

Yeah. It doesn't. It doesn't. You people ask me all the time how I charge what I charge. The number one reason I'm able to charge $36,000 for a 30-day engagement with me is because I don't people please. And because I won't people please, in the sales conversation, I will ask for consent and be honest and truthful about what I'm noticing, what I see, what I see as the pathway. And when you really logically think about it, you can understand that if you're willing to bend for somebody, then they know they can push you. They can manipulate you. And so, they're not going to get the robust results. But if they know that you're going to hold the firm container, that you're going to hold the boundary, that you're not going to let it pass if they're saying something that you know is not true. You're going to say, hey. Can I challenge you on that? That's what builds the trust to know, oh, this person can actually help me. This person has the courage to stand up to my lies. And the lies are not, you know, the manipulative, nasty lies. They're the subtle, soft, tender, oh my gosh, I can't speak my truth in the world because I'm afraid kind of lie. They're not the lies of trying to hurt somebody. They're the lies of trying to not be hurt.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:09:58

And so, in a sales conversation, when you know you're talking with somebody and they tell you something like, well, I don't have the money to invest. And you say, oh, okay. Is it that you don't have any money, or is it that you don't have a column in your budget to invest here and because you never have? Or is it that you are struggling to pay your rent or your bills and you really don't have the money? Or is it that you're going on a vacation, buying a couch, and doing all these other things and not investing in yourself? Which one is it? You're not trying to tell them you have to invest. You're just asking what kind of I don't have the money to invest is this that we're talking about? So, there's just a little nugget there.

Marli Williams [: 00:10:47

So many things that I've learned from you. 1, that you've mentioned is around this idea of consent of, you know, to get out of people pleasing. If I'm going to challenge somebody, can I challenge you on that? Can I ask you a question on that, right? And instead of just, like, cowering or being so scared to ask the question, we just ask for permission first. And there were a couple questions that I love that you asked. Like, when we're in a group coaching call or in any coaching situation, 1, do I have permission to interrupt you at any time? Because some people like to go into story land for a long time, and you don't always need that. And 2, are you willing to go to the deepest place possible? The first call that I was on with you when you asked those 2 questions and I had been coaching for a long time. And even just that insight like, when have I ever asked that question? Or when have I wanted to stop someone in the middle of their story because they're rambling on and I don't need to hear it, but I haven't, you know, can I pause you for a moment? But you've already asked for consent in advance to be able to do that. And I would imagine that some people that are listening might be like, you charge what? For how long? And this is one of the things that I'm excited to connect with you about today is how do you get to a place where, again, moving through people pleasing, getting to a point where you charge $36,000 for a 30-day container of coaching experience with you. And just what has been that journey? And maybe we can jam, we can unpack that, we can unpack the stories or beliefs or, like, even the things that, again, some people might be thinking or feeling like, that shit is crazy. You know, whatever. You're greedy or that's too much or I would never invest that. I don't know. All the noise that we might hear when someone's like, I really want to work with you. How much is it? It's not like day 0 as a coach out the gate. Right? If you have mentors, they've also been on their learning journey and their growth journey. And we meet people at a certain moment in time, but they've also, like, been on their own growth trajectory and had to start somewhere. So, I would love to just, like, explore that, what that path has been like for you, where you started, and we can jam on that.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:13:18

Well, first of all, I did an Instagram live last night. And so, by the time this is launched, somebody will have to go find it. But on my Instagram, we can link it in the show notes if you want.

Marli Williams [: 00:13:31

Okay.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:13:32

Okay. Awesome. And then once you're there, then you can check my stuff out. I found because I just moved into a new home in Santa Barbara. It's where we live. I found my first flyer for coaching services. This was decades ago, and it was for $75 an hour for coaching private sessions with Marla. It had 3 different categories. Open your heart, clear your mind for good decision making, and expand your potential or something like that. I mean, it was like, I'm still totally in line with what I care about, which was really cool to see. But I was like, oh my god. This is really cool.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:14:11

And so, that's where I came from, charging $75 an hour. And then when I was really doing great coaching back then, I was charging $95 an hour. That was bold. There was nobody charging more than, like, $75 an hour at that time. It was bold to charge $95 for an hour. And so, in any case, my journey, I hired a mentor. In 2015, I hired a mentor, and he taught me more of the mindset of what is necessary in order to raise your rate, in order to charge beyond hourly. So, the first shift was, how do I move beyond hourly into a container? And so, to move into a period of time, not just a one-off session, because in between, you're still going to be communicating with these people, with the client. Right? Because you're going to want to help them and support them unless you're a therapist, in which case you just do your one thing. But really, if you want to raise your rates, first, you got to create a container. So, 3 days, 90 days, 6 months, a year, 18 months. You know? So, the first thing is how long do you want to work with people? If you don't want to work with people for a year, please do not create a program that's a yearlong program. Okay? Make it shorter than that. And then I realized I wanted to be able to charge what I really felt the value of the work was. And so, the value of the work means the outcome that the clients get.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:15:48

First of all, has an immediate result, and there is a trajectory of results that happen. Okay? And you've experienced that with me in our ESP alumni group, which is our ethical sales institute has an alumni group once you go through the training. And when you receive some training and you receive some coaching and guidance and you do something with it, you are one of my favorite people to work with because you receive it and you do something with it. And then you're vocal about it. And you're like, yeah. Let's squeeze the most out of it. And those are my favorite people to work with where you're just like, yes. Let's go all in. And then there's a trajectory. Right? Because it's not like what issue is gone or done in that moment is gone forever.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:16:39

It's going to spiral back and hit all the time. Go, hey. How about now? What did you really learn? Right? And what did you really learn? And so, to raise my rates, I needed to have the belief that it was possible. And so, I surround myself with other people who were also charging more. I started speaking from stages. I started sharing more of what I know to be true because in the past, I would really only work behind the scenes with people. I didn't want to be on stages. I didn't want to be in the front. I didn't have a website or any social media presence for years. It wasn't until I really understood the value of the outcome of the work I provide, I could actually charge whatever I wanted. Whatever felt good to me. And the first time I raised my rate significantly was when I raised it to $12,000 for 6-week engagement for working with couples. Speaking in a conversation with this one couple, it was sales conversation, and he asked me a bunch of questions. What if I want to have a vasectomy in the middle of our 6 weeks? You know, is that going to eat up the 6 weeks on the spot? I'm like, well, we could pause that and then pick it up once you've healed. What other objections do you have? Like, what else is in the way of this? And then he said, well, why is it $12,000? Because that's what feels good to me. And his wife at the time said, I would pay a $120,000 if I felt that it could really work. And I said, do you have any other concerns or questions, or would you like to work together? And he said, I would like to work with you.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:18:30

And it's sort of like you don't know that you can do it until you do it. You have to be in the conversation with a pre thought out program of what you're selling and what the benefits are and how much it is, how much is the deposit before you get in a sales conversation. If you're going to wing it, you're not going to be able to charge those rates. If you have this idea in writing, this is what I charge. This is how much the deposit is. This is how long the program is. These are the results that I'm guaranteeing, essentially. Then go for it.

Marli Williams [: 00:19:17

There are so many amazing things that you shared here is, like, that belief in yourself and what influences that belief. Right? Surrounding yourself with other people who are doing the work, who are charging them out. And like, okay. I'm seeing this happen. This is real life. Like, other people are charging this. It plants that seed of that new reality, that new possibility. That just happened for me. I've been in this facilitation training, and it's blowing my mind. Literally, this week, I'm taking this training. And this guy charges, like, over $100,000 to work with companies using this approach that he's teaching us. And I'm like, okay. New possibility. Being in the arena with people that are charging a $100,000 for a facilitated interactive learning experience using appreciative inquiry and using these tools and using these techniques and me thinking in my head as I'm in this training, like, I can freaking do this. Right? So, there is this energy of, oh, that's a new possibility. I can do that too.

Marli Williams [: 00:20:22

The question that comes up, and I could see other people listening might have this too is, and where I've really gotten stuck or held myself back is this idea of being able to guarantee results. And the fear that comes with, like, the more that I charge, the more pressure I put on myself. I am now responsible for them getting this result because I've charged this much money. And so, it feels like this weight or it can feel heavy. Oh, shit. Now what? And I remember I felt that way, like, the first time someone paid like, wrote me a check for $5,000 for a 1-hour keynote. And I was like, I hope I don't fuck this up.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:21:05

First of all, there's truth to that. If you say I can help you with this, there is a responsibility. And so, I won't want to be totally transparent and say, absolutely. You do need to have that sense of, like, oh, I'm responsible now. Yes. You are. If somebody's investing, especially because the way the coaching industry is currently. There are people out there who are excellent practitioners. They're great at what they do, and they don't know how to charge properly for their services. Those are the people who come to me. And there's other people who are not great practitioners, and they want to raise their rates to charge $500,000 for their work, and they do. And then they don't get people results or they ghost their clients, and they are not doing good work in the world. And those people never come to work with me because they can't. They can't. They won't pass my entire process. You have to be doing good work in order to actually work with me in any way and learn my process.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:22:02

The first part of the process is humans over transactions. So, you care about the human more than the money, more than the transaction of getting the sale. So, just knowing that, yes, there is a responsibility. Number 1, guaranteeing results. Here's how what I say. I don't guarantee results. I guarantee that if you say yes to working with me, that means a couple of things. That means that we've gone through a process already. So, for private work. Okay? That means we've gone through a rigorous process where we've excavated a lot of your material. We both know exactly what it is that you're coming to me for, and you're willing to surrender into my process, into the way I guide. And you're willing to take new actions. You're willing to experience something new that will be uncomfortable, guaranteed. Guaranteed it will be uncomfortable. If it's not uncomfortable, we haven't hit the spot yet. K? And that it will change something in your life to get a result that will take you towards that goal that you're hoping for. You might get to that goal by the end of the 30 days, but we also might uncover a bunch of other things that you didn't even realize.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:23:19

And therefore, not get to the goal that you were hoping for, but get to a different goal that's going to take you closer to the goal you originally had. And so, as long as someone's willing to surrender, as long as someone is willing to put in the effort and the work and really look deeply, then I can guarantee that they will have a result that they are happy with, that they feel grateful for, and that will guide them in their journey on the next step. So, people who work with me also must be on a spiritual path. They're only in the logic world of I've invested this, therefore, I own you and your time, and you have to give me every little thing. I would push that out in a sales conversation. They would never make it through my sales conversation. They must care beyond logic.

Marli Williams [: 00:24:08

And there are so many things that you shared in this that I think are really, really powerful to pinpoint and a few things that I know that you do in your process that you maybe didn't share around qualifying the people that you want to work with. So often as coaches or entrepreneurs, we're like, we can come from this place of desperation, or it's like, I need them to sign up versus is this a right fit for me, and how do I qualify someone and know whether they're a right fit? And so, kind of, like, using a questionnaire before having that sales conversation, vetting them, asking those powerful questions, which is part of, like, I think not being a people pleaser, not being like, oh, I can help you if you can't. Right? And this is the thing of, like, really making sure that whatever they're coming to you for is actually something that you can deliver and you can actually help them with. And I think for people that are maybe at the beginning, they don't have that trust in themselves. And that's why we have to scaffold the value ladder potentially. Like, you start at that $100 is that $75 an hour, and you build trust within yourself and you see the results you're getting for people or helping people you're not getting them for people. You're helping them on their journey to get those results so that you can start to collect the evidence of the value that that experience with you offers people. And one of the things that you've had us do that I think was really powerful is who do you need to be in order to attract and be ready to serve and support that next level client, that next level organization or speaking opportunity. Like, who do I need to show up in the world as a leader, as a coach, as a speaker? Who do I need to be to be someone who charges $10,000 for a speaking engagement? That's, like, kind of my next, alright. I've made 5,000. What does 10,000 look like, sound like, and feel like? Who else is doing that? What's that arena? How can I play in that playground? And that, I think, is really a powerful question to ask yourself if you're a coach, if you're a person out there who is serving people, it's like, who do I need to be? What are the, you call it the leadership qualities and characteristics I have to be and have in order to serve a higher level or a next level client, whatever that looks like or means for you.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:26:51

Well, think about it logically. I always talk about beyond logic, but we want to use logic too. Right? So, logically, if you think about it, an ideal client will see through bullshit. They're going to see if you don't really know what you're doing. If you have holes in your process, if you don't follow through, they're going to see it. And this is why most people don't enroll ideal clients. They enroll less than ideal clients so they can both be in this sort of mushy people pleasing. We'll try to kind of get results space. It's kind of fascinating because if you really logically think about it, ideal clients are hungry. They're ready for it. They're like, great. I did what you asked. What's next? Great. I'm in. Okay. They keep you on your toes. You have to be your best self with an ideal client. You have an ideal client, show up with their great vibes, their good energy and you're on a down? Uh-uh. You better raise your vibe before you get on that call. And if you can't do that, your ideal client's going to be like, what's going on here?

Marli Williams [: 00:28:08

I'm going to go find somebody else.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:28:10

Yeah. That's right. This is not what you promised, and they're going to say it. So, and then what you're talking about is so if you have this ideal client, and what are they? They're coachable. They respond within 24 hours to everything that you ask. They get the results because they do what you're asking them to do. And they're kind and they're resourceful and all of these things. If that's who you're attracting and you're not coachable and you're not resourceful and you're not, then how can you attract somebody who is? Everybody has heard like attracts like. This is what it means. You want this amazing ideal client who is ready to invest, financially secure, has the money right away to invest, pay in full. Are you? Do you do that? Are you ready to invest? Are you ready to lay down $10,000 for somebody? Well, if you're expecting somebody else to do it, then that's your growth edge. If you're not able to do it, highly unlikely you're going to attract a client who's able to do it. This is what like attract likes means in the sales conversation. So, if you want to be able to attract people who are financially secure, who have that money to invest, who are coachable, etcetera, then ask yourself, where's my growth edge? Can I grow in some area in my own life? And then I also want to just say that having said all of that, you really want to be gentle with yourself. So, you're at the beginning of the journey here and you need to earn, who cares about ideal clients? You're going to learn through the journey of accepting a client. Just get a client that has at least one quality that you love and care about that's really important to you that's a deal breaker if they don't have that quality.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:30:08

Get a client. Help that one person get results. And then ask yourself through that process and at the end, what did I love about working with this client? What did I not like about this client? Over time, you start to understand who your ideal client is. Your questionnaire starts to change from just name, email, and why do you want to talk to me to a robust questionnaire like I have in all of my programs for private work. You got to know where you're at. If you're at the beginning of the journey, don't compare yourself to Marli. Don't compare yourself to me. Don't compare yourself to anybody.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:30:45

Really ask yourself, what do you need right now? If you need to pay rent, get a client that you can absolutely help. Like, for example, I worked with this one couple. I didn't realize they didn't live together when we originally said yes. And when you don't live together and you can go home to separate places, the intensity is not there to really marinate in all of the stuff because you can go away. I didn't realize that at the time. So, they didn't get the amazing results that I know is possible, and then in my questionnaire, I changed it. Do you live together? And if they say no, then I ask different questions to see if they're willing to marinate and stay in it and not go to their separate houses. It didn't mean I wouldn't work with people who don't live in the same house. It just meant I needed to ask about it if that's what they put in their questionnaire. So, I have countless examples of that that I've learned over the years, but you don't know these things until you start. Until you just start one client. Then you get to know what do I really care about? What's really important to me? And that's how you start crafting your questionnaire so that you find out if this person has those qualities that you care about.

Marli Williams [: 00:32:00

So good. It's like we don't know what we don't know until we know. And to say numbers out loud and to figure out, you know, when people say, well, what should I charge for a speaking engagement or for coaching or whatever? And it's like, you get to make up the rules. What do you want to charge? And when you say the number, does it feel like it's a blend of this feels a little edgy stretchy, and I can say this number out loud and really feel good about it.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:32:30

Yes. And you know I have lots of different ways to help people do that. One of the ways is if you say it out loud in front of the mirror the price you want to charge. So, for you right now, I charge $10,000 for speaking engagement. Period. And then do it in lots and lots of different ways, and then try this. Say some other number, a higher number, over and over and over. I charge $20,000 for speaking engagement. I charge $20,000 for a speaking engagement. I charge $20,000 for a speaking engagement over and over and over. And when you say this higher number than when you say that the lower number, it sounds like a deal.

Marli Williams [: 00:33:14

It's so true. You're like, what? It's only $10? Done.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:33:18

Yes.

Marli Williams [: 00:33:18

Yeah. That's really good. You know? And, yeah, again, if you're at the beginning of the journey, I charge $2,000 for coaching. I charge $2,000 for coaching. And then when you say I charge $1,000 for coaching, it's like, oh, that's it? Sweet. And I had never, like, had a sales call and that someone was going to pay me directly for a service I was providing, i.e. coaching or speaking. And I remember a coach saying to me that people don't invest in you. They invest in themselves through you.

Marli Williams [: 00:33:54

It was one of those kinds of the mantras that I held as I've went through the sales process because, like, again, I put all this pressure on myself. Like, they're investing in me. But it's like I'm giving them this opportunity to invest in themselves through me. And one of the things that you also share in the ethical sales process is we talked about humans over transactions. And one of the other ones is to celebrate choice. Right? Where a lot of traditional sales approaches is like, get the yes. Always be closing and, like, get people and also just this fear that I think a lot of people have around a sales conversation is hearing a no. And so, the goal is to get a yes versus the goal is for someone to make a clear choice about whatever is the right best next step for them.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:34:47

Yes. I think if you ask yourself, would you rather hear a no thank you, or would you rather be ghosted? I think that is a good question to ask yourself because some people actually would prefer to be ghosted to avoid the no altogether. Like, I just never hear from them again. They say yes on the call because they're people pleasing, and then they never talk to me again, and they never fill out the contract. They never send a deposit. Right? And they just go, I don't know what happened. If you would rather be ghosted than hear a no, then you're calling in those lessons around being ghosted, around not hearing a no. If you're wanting to hear a no rather than being ghosted, then you're really on the right track here. You're on the track of being able to charge more for the work that you do because you're willing to receive the truth in the moment that it presents itself. That's what a no is. And most people don't know how to say no. I didn't know how to say no. I was a full-on people pleasing yes, yes, yes person. It's still in my nature. I want to say ask my assistant. I want to say yes to everything that crosses my plate that I am lit up by, which is a lot.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:36:04

And I can't say yes to everything. Now we have a process by which I'm allowed to say yes because I will fill my calendar with things that it's like, oh my gosh. Where's my space? So, when we're really willing to hear a no, first of all, it's painful. It's painful. There's a reason why we avoid it. It's because hearing a no is a form of rejection, and a form of rejection goes back to our primordial human DNA function of safety to belong in a group. This is part of polyvagal theory of safety and understanding. When we hear a no, there's research that's been done on this since back in 2003, that hearing a no and being excluded feels like physical pain. So, this is why we say, oh, when they said no to me or when they left me, like, in a relationship, when they said no, it felt like a punch in the gut. There's a physical component to it. It's the same neural pathway in the brain as physical pain to hear a no. So, we receive a no as rejection rather than clarity of choice. That's what we teach in the Ethical Sales Institute. Hearing a no is something to celebrate. Why? Because when somebody is willing to tell you no thank you, they close the door with you so they can open the door with somebody or something else. And for that reason alone, that's a celebration because you want your no honored also.

Marli Williams [: 00:37:36

Yeah. And closing that energetic loop and closing that container. And like you said, the goal is clarity for you and for them. And how many, you know, when you think about how many open loops are out there when people end the conversation because they don't want to say no and you don't want to hear a no, they say things like, I'll think about it. I'll get back to you.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:37:58

I need to talk to my partner. I need to meditate on it. And then you reach out. You reach out. You reach out. You never hear back. And then you're like, and you run into each other at an event or a party or something and you're like, what happened to you? But you don't ask that question. You just say, hi.

Marli Williams [: 00:38:14

It's so true. So, okay. Hot tips for people out there that haven't been through your amazing ethical sales process that I have been through. So, someone says, I have to think about it or I'm going to think about it. What do I do now?

Marla Mattenson [: 00:38:29

Okay. Great. You be that person, and I'll be me.

Marli Williams [: 00:38:33

Okay. Marla, 36k for a month. Sounds great. Love to do it, but let me think about it.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:38:39

Okay. Awesome. I'm always in favor of somebody thinking about it and considering it and meditating on it. That's the, yes. Okay? That's the, I'm receiving the totality of what you're saying. K? And I'm curious, if you're available, what do you need to think about? It's helpful to talk it out because there might be a couple of things, I can help you with and the other things that you need to think about on your own. In which case, I might want to give you a little guidance on how to think about it or a framework for thinking about it and considering it. And then you take your time, and then we can set another time to chat after you've thought about it. But before that, if you just have a black box of, like, I need to think about it and you have no direction or clarity, and I just go, okay, because I don't know what to say, then instead, you're going to go out and think, I don't really need this. I don't really need to spend the money on this right now. I'm going to just try the things that we talked about in the conversation, etcetera, but there's no real direction you have, let me help you. So, what do you need to think about? That's what I would say.

Marli Williams [: 00:39:45

I love this so much. And what is coming up for me was is, like, why we don't ask that question is going back to where we started around people pleasing. It's, like, easier to let people off the hook, but we're letting ourselves off the hook. We're letting them off the hook. We're not allowing people to be, like, naturally resourceful, creative, and whole and capable to be able to, like, go there with people. And when you go there with people I mean, to me, that's where the sales conversation begins. It's like that's where the coaching begins is, can I be with you in the fear, in the doubt, in the uncertainty, in the unknown, in this place of decision or indecision? And how can I show up powerfully in this moment alongside of you without the graspy, needy, I need you to say yes? And to remind people, like, the goal isn't a yes. The goal is that you have clarity on whatever decision is right for you right now. I would love to help support you in getting to that place of clarity.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:40:55

The main difference between traditional sales and ethical sales, the way that we practice, is traditional sales drives to a yes and twists a no back into a yes, which is why we get defensive and why we ghost and why we say yes when we really mean no. Because you're being pushed and pressured into a yes. And ethical sales, 100% of the focus of the conversation is clarity. And so, when the focus is clarity and clarity meaning a clear yes or clear no, and if it's not a clear yes or clear no, then you're still in the messy middle, in which case that's where or the magical middle, however you want to say it. That's where the curiosity is. So, the first version you did, by the way, of I need to think about it. I do want to address that because I think it's interesting that I would have actually helped you say no. So, I would have said something like this.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:41:51

So, for those of you who are listening, Marli said, well, wow. You know, the 36,000 and out of that. Right? So, you started going off on that. I need to think about it. And I would respond with something kind of like, I'm not sure thinking about it is going to help. I actually am sensing that this is a current no for you, and I feel it would be more beneficial for us to spend the rest of the conversation talking about what it feels like for you to just say no, thank you at this time that you're currently a no. And maybe it goes on your wish list or it goes on your, you know, in the future or that we develop a relationship where you can speak the truth to me, and then we can talk about, you know, why are you in no? Why are you currently no? Like, are you willing to swim in the no with me for a little while? I'll tell you when I do that, and I do that often. Even when somebody says a yes, I pause. And this is something that every traditional salesperson will tell you, don't ever do this. And in ethical sales, I say, please do this. Okay? And here's what this is. Right? Once they say yes, if you have the courage and you don't need the money right away. Okay? Because this is a little too much for somebody who really needs the money like right now. Okay? So, you can skip this part. Everybody else, here's the deal.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:43:24

Once they've said yes, you say wonderful. I'm also a yes. Can we slow this down just a little bit to swim around in the no. It's really important to me that I hear from you that you get to express those little parts of your mind that are still, I'm not sure. I'm a little nervous. Where are the no's lingering around? And if we can talk about those things, then when they arise later in the fulfillment, we can use them as a way to understand what even deeper what's going on for you. Are you willing to slow down on the no with me for a little while? And so, like, for example, I did this with somebody last year who basically said, okay. Here's my no. My no is, I feel like I could do this on my own. And my response? You're right. You could. Working with me will make it faster. It will have you avoid a bunch of potholes along the journey, and it will be guaranteed way more fun, way more enjoyable, way more GEJF filled, which is what we say. Grace, ease, join and flow, GEJF, GEJF filled. And so, that's the question then, is do you want to do it on your own? Because you could. It'll probably take longer. It'll be more clunky. It'll be more challenging if you don't have a guide or a guide like me. Or do you want to work with me? And he said, I want to work with you. I said, great. And he was like, nobody's ever allowed me into sooner than I before. I say, yes. Drive. Drive. Drive. Sign the contract. Get the deposit. It takes a lot of courage to swim in the no.

Marli Williams [: 00:45:19

So much courage, so much trust in you, so much trust in them, trust in your process. Like, it's just such a beautiful demonstration of your ability to hold them through that journey too. And I think we live in this culture of, like, get to this place as fast as possible. Like, get to the yes as fast as possible versus I think what you have taught me, like, slow down the process. Someone wants to work with you and is like, great. Here's the thing. You know? Over and upwards, like, this almost graspy like, I need to get them to sign the contract right now. Right? Because otherwise, they're going to change their mind.

Marli Williams [: 00:45:54

And, again, this all goes back to if we're just people pleasing our way, like, it is really hard to be a leader, a coach, a speaker, an entrepreneur if you are just trying to, like, please people. And that looks like, well, what will they pay? I want to make it accessible for everybody. All these things that I hear a lot of heart centered, beautiful souls who listen to this podcast, and it's like, I want to help everybody. And, you know, and I want to make money doing it, and I want to feel good. I want to feel in integrity with who I'm being in the world, with what I'm offering with people, with how I'm inviting people into a sales conversation. I think even for a lot of heart center people, even having a sales conversation is, like, the most terrifying thing that they can imagine having versus, like, how can it be fun and uplifting and powerful and medicine for you, for them? Like, just there's the whole different approach and a whole different just mindset even thinking about. I'm like, I wish there was a different name for the sales conversation because people are like, ah, sales. Oh.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:47:02

That's why people name it discovery call, exploratory call, consultation. It's just avoiding the word sales, but it's a sales conversation. And, you know, there's a reason why people avoid that. It's because we inherited traditional sales techniques into all of the way we sell as practitioners and professionals. And the reason that we do that is because there's a huge training gap. There are very few trainings out there for how do I sell my services by being myself, by, like you said, having fun, enjoying the conversation, building a trust relationship with somebody where they can trust you're not driving to a yes, where they trust that you have their back whether they say yes or no, you're not going to cut them out of your life just because they said no. Right? That where are the trainings for that? Well, that's why we created the Ethical Sales Institute, is to provide the training and the community, which is necessary. And that's what we started in the beginning is how do you make that leap from an hourly rate into charging $1,000 for your work? 5000, 10000, 20,000, a 100,000, or more. How do you do that? Well, you also have to know what you're great at. One of the things I needed was permission to say yes to what I already wanted to do. And I need somebody to believe in me. We talked about that, mentors who believe in you. One of my mentors, David Nagel, his belief in me was enough for me to believe in myself. And I didn't have anybody else in my life at that time who believed in me. Everybody else was skeptical. They were naysayers. They were, you know, like, what are you doing? This is weird. Even I have a friend when I left the, my teaching career as a high school math teacher, she told me about a year after I left the teaching profession. She said, I haven't spoken with you not because I don't care about you. I didn't want to bring my fear that you wouldn't make it into your life. I was so terrified when you left teaching. Everybody she knew comes back, and they start teaching again. And so, she was like, I didn't want to bring my fear that you would come back into our relationship. And I was like, thank you. Looks like everything unfolds the way it needs to for your greatest growth and evolution. And if you can surround yourself with people who believe in you, who believe in themselves, and who believe in the power of community. And this is one of the things I love about you and your work in the world is the community aspect. Like, we're in this together. We're in it together, y'all. Like, let's uplift together. That's and where you get to be yourself in your sales, in your fulfillment, and in your life. And that is what brings more joy into the world when we get to be our weird, wild, quirky selves.

Marli Williams [: 00:50:10

Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. And it really speaks to the last part of the trifecta that I love with the ethical sales process is we talked about humans over transactions, celebrate choice, and this last piece that I think we're really speaking to, which is sell the way that you serve. And when you're in that sales conversation, that it is an active service for that person. And that I like, the intention is that this person will feel uplifted through this conversation, that I will feel uplifted. Like, what's the intention versus so off again, in traditional sales, the intention is get the yes. If I sell the way I serve and you are a heart centered service based, you know, entrepreneur in the world, you care about people. And how can you see this as an opportunity to care with and care for and have a powerful conversation to support someone to help them. You know, what's your hopes and goals and dreams? What's getting in the way? Where do you see yourself? What's the cost if you don't? That was a powerful conversation to hold and have with someone and to show up as powerfully in that conversation as you would as, like, oh, if they said yes and they were a client, we, like, kind of wait to serve people. And that's counterintuitive too because a lot of people say don't coach or, like, don't help people on a sales conversation. The goal is to get the yes, and then you can help them.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:51:41

Sell the way you serve is exactly what you're talking about. It's in your fulfillment. How you serve. Like, when you say to yourself, gosh. If I could just get somebody into my fulfillment, then I know I can serve them. I know I can help them. I'm so good with people when they're in my care. I really care about people. Right? And when you work with people, whether you're an attorney, a financial or wealth advisor, a coach, a guide, a consultant, when you work with private sensitive, sometimes tender information behind the scenes in your fulfillment, if they have no experience with you being how you are in fulfillment, in the sales conversation, to me, that's out of integrity. So, sell the way you serve means you don't coach them and give them a full session in the sales conversation. You give them an amuse bouche. You give them a little taster. Right? You give them a little taste of what it's like. And before you do, you ask for consent. And then after you give them the taster, you ask them, how what was that like to receive? How was that for you? What did you notice about yourself? Will you have a closure? So, you don't just start coaching people. You say, would you like to have a little taste of what it's like to work with me? Because you were just talking about x, y, and z. And if we were in our fulfillment, I would poke at that a little bit. I would challenge you on that. I would question that way of thinking. But we're not in a contract, so it's not appropriate for me to do that. So, I'm asking, would you like to have a little taste of what it's like to coach with me? And if yes, that's consent. And if no, that's totally fine, and thank you for being honest. So, please don't say yes when you mean no. So, I'd like you to pause and check-in. May I challenge you on that way of thinking right now? And that's a consent question. Pause long enough to receive a real response, and then say, so, and lean in and be your bold, beautiful, phenomenal self as if you were in your fulfillment, and now you're in integrity because you're selling the way you serve. And to whom, that's all about being who you really are and not holding it back for fulfillment.

Marli Williams [: 00:54:01

It's so good. And I think it's important to distinguish. It's not over giving in that conversation either where you just coach them the whole time, and then there's no next step. And you just felt like you just gave them all of this stuff, and it is a sales conversation, meaning the goal is clarity. We're exploring together today whether we're a good fit, and I imagine by the end, we'll know either way.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:54:28

This is one of the challenges because maybe, you know, they can be honest with you, but can they be honest with themselves? And this is the people pleasing is the highest form of lying. I told you this story before, but I think it'll be interesting for your listeners is, you know, I was working with a CEO of a company in an executive coaching contract. And 2 weeks after we started, he said, I'm resigning from CEO, and it's because of something you said. Of course, on the inside, I'm like, oh, keep it together, Marla. You better pay attention. What's happening? And then I go, don't tell me more, you know? And he shared. He said, yeah. In your first presentation, you had a slide, and it said people pleasing is the highest form of lying. And I realized I had been lying to the founder of the company, and I've been lying to myself because I care about him and I wanted him to be successful. I love him. I love the business. I love the model. But what you don't know and what most of the people in the company don't know is that my wife is suffering right now, and I want to be there for her. I don't want to be working at a startup working 12 to 14 hours a day. I want to be hung with my family, and I want to work a CEO job that's more relaxed so I can be there for my family. And in the moment, it was hard because then they needed to hire a new CEO. However, why would you want a CEO in your company who didn't really want to be there? So, it's a time bender. It compresses time. When you stop people pleasing, you find out the truth of all of your relationships.

Marli Williams [: 00:56:11

So good. I mean, like you said, it's not just people pleasing as it relates to other people. But turning this question towards yourself, and I didn't invite people to do this, is where are you lying to you?

Marla Mattenson [: 00:56:22

That's number 1. We don't even realize how much we lie to ourselves. Everybody's a people pleaser, including me, still, because we never actually say exactly what we're thinking. There's always a modification. Also, words are always a truncated version of whatever the experience is. So, there's always some form of lying happening or deception is probably a better way to say that. But people pleasing is when you actually are aware that you're a no and you say yes anyway. Sometimes you're not even aware of it. You just are like, yes. And later, if you're resentful about something or frustrated about something, you might want to back it up and see if you people pleased somewhere along the path and said yes when you really meant no.

Marli Williams [: 00:57:06

And looking for those moments, I know for me, it's like, when am I doing this? Because when I was first doing this work, I was like, so either I get to be a people pleaser or an asshole. Like, that was the story that I had. I thought I was doing the right thing and being a good person by doing all of these things. But really, I was just doing it so they would think that I was a good person.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:57:29

To me, that is the best first step is what am I resenting in my life? That is what am I judging and what am I resenting? To me, that's what I've done in my life. And in my personal relationship with Julian for the last 8+ years is when I'm judging, it's usually him. And that's my first step in something's off in me. If I'm judging him, is something off in me. He's not doing anything wrong. It's I am thinking about things in a way, and I probably have overextended myself or something. So, judgment is one lens look through and another is resentment. Ask yourself, what am I resenting in my life? Are you resenting your career? Are you resenting the fact that you need to even be on sales conversations? If that's what you're resenting, by the way, please come to one of the Ethical Sales Institute trainings. Just come. Okay? You can find it through my Instagram that you'll see, in the show notes. Check out the Linktree, by the way. The Linktree has a free quiz, the client whisper quiz. And the quiz itself is good, but the results and these email sequence you get afterwards are phenomenal. It's robust. We put all kinds of things in parts so that you could have that. So, check out the Linktree on my Instagram. That's going to give you a good place to start.

Marli Williams [: 00:58:57

So good. Everything that you put out there, everything that you create is so powerful. I have learned so much from you. I hope that people that are listening, hope you are taking notes. I hope you relisten to this. I would love for you to share, like, where people can find you, learn more about you, study with you, learn from you, grow with you? And then any final thoughts you want to leave people with as well.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:59:19

Yeah. So, Instagram, we actually just have our brand-new Instagram, which is Ethical Sales Institute. Probably the easiest way to find it is to go to Marla Mattenson. So, MATTENSON. You go to Instagram, Marla Mattenson. I'm the only one. And in my Linktree, you'll see the Ethical Sales Institute. And then LinkedIn, of course, is a great way to find me as well. Those are the 2 best places.

Marla Mattenson [: 00:59:46

And final thoughts, I really believe in being gentle with yourself. I really believe in self-love as a practice, as a way, you know, to really become aware of the thoughts in our mind of how unkind we are to ourselves. It's really impossible to be unkind to anybody outwardly without also being unkind inwardly. And so, one of the greatest choices I've made in my life is to look at how unkind I am to myself. And if you take that journey to look at how unkind you are with yourself, in your own inner world, in your thoughts, in your heart, in your actions, and you can love yourself through that, you will become more kind outwardly, and you will transform naturally, organically, gracefully, and it'll be a very tender path. And my belief is that the leaders of the future are the tenderhearted leaders. So, going in through the portal of may I be more kind to myself, especially for women, this, to me, is one of the greatest pathways forward to be a great leader in our world.

Marli Williams [: 01:00:57

That is so beautiful and so true. And as you were sharing that, I was just feeling myself, like, soften into what that feels like to be more kind to myself because I think the pattern, the tendency that many people, specially I think women have is just this like, do it all. The getting it right, the never making a mistake, not messing up when we do, beating ourselves up, the shaming, the blaming, the silent suffering that is happening. And if we want to show up as these tenderhearted leaders, how tender can we be with ourselves and with our own hearts so that we can lead with more GEJF, more grace, ease, joy, flow. Not just tell people what to do, but we can exude it. We can be models of that. We can really lead by example. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here, my friend, and thank you everybody for listening. I can't wait to hear what your golden nuggets are, your insights, your takeaways when you take the quiz, what you're learning. Dive into Marla’s world. Like, learn from her. Learn from this woman. She's a powerhouse. So, epic leaders need epic mentors, and thank you for being one of mine. Until next time, everybody. Take care.

Marli Williams [: 01:02:22

Thank you for joining us on another inspiring episode of the Marli Williams podcast. We hope you're leaving here with renewed energy and valuable insights to fuel your leadership, coaching, and speaking endeavors. I'd love to invite you to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast to help us reach more aspiring leaders and speakers like you. We have more exciting episodes and remarkable guests lined up, so make sure to tune in next time. Until then, keep leading with purpose, coaching with heart, and speaking with conviction. This is Marli Williams signing off. See you next week.