The Art of Creating Transformational Experiences -14

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Marli Williams [: 00:00:00

Hey, everyone. What is happening? I would love to welcome you back to the Marli Williams podcast where this week, I will be interviewing the incredible Joanna Lindenbaum who is a masterful facilitator of transformation. She is a mentor of mine. I have studied alongside of her and dove into her work, which is all about helping transformational leaders, coaches, and guides really go to the depths of who they are so they can serve their clients more powerfully. This is an incredible conversation, and I just cannot wait to dive in with Joanna today. So, let's go.

Marli Williams [: 00:00:46

Hey, everyone. What's happening? I am super stoked to welcome you to the Marli Williams podcast, where we will explore authentic leadership, transformational facilitation, and how to create epic experiences for your audiences every single time. I am your host, Marli Williams, bringing you thought provoking insights, expert interviews and actionable strategies to unlock your potential as a leader, facilitator, and speaker. Thank you for joining me on this journey of growth, transformation, and impact. Let's Lead Together. The Marli Williams podcast begins now. Let's dive in.

Marli Williams [: 00:01:28

Alright, everybody. Welcome back to the Marli Williams podcast. I am so stoked to have you all here, and I am really excited to have a powerful conversation with one of my mentors, Joanna Lindenbaum who is just such a masterful facilitator and practitioner, and I'm just so stoked to have you here. Thank you for being here today.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:01:52

Oh, you're so welcome. I'm just taking all of that into my heart. Thanks for that intro. I'm thrilled to be here.

Marli Williams [: 00:01:58

I just think it's so important for coaches to have coaches, for mentors to have mentors, and been a witness to your work. I've been a student of your work over the years and just seeing who you are in the world, seeing how you show up. I would love for you to have an opportunity for you to introduce yourself to this amazing podcast audience and community of just what your work is in the world and what's lighting you up the most about your work right now. And we'll just kick things off from there.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:02:31

Yeah. I love it. Great. So, okay. I could go on and on, but I'll keep it short about, you know, what I do a little bit, like, how I came to it. For years, I was, you know what, you could call a leadership coach and business coach, which was amazing. I loved it. I love supporting my clients to move forward in their business and on an inner level, you know, to work through the fears and the beliefs.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:02:59

One thing I noticed a couple years into it was that one of the reasons why my clients, they were all coaches, therapists, leaders, practitioners. One of the reasons why my clients were doing so well in their business, so much to do with the marketing techniques and what he's teaching them. It had a lot to do with the inner work, and it had a lot to do with the fact that all of the coaching and transformation techniques that I was modeling for them, they were bringing into their own work. Their people became raving fans. Their clients, you know, were re-signing, we're sending referrals, and then they were feeling more confident to put themselves out in the world because, you know, they had this success. So, it was a light bulb moment of, oh, when I'm actually really teaching people techniques for going deeper with clients and going deeper with yourself. So, that's how I came to do the work that I do now, which is really supporting transformational practitioners to go deeper in their 1-on-1 work, in their group work, in their leadership with themselves. I love the coaching and transformational industries so much.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:04:19

And, also, sometimes I feel like there's too much of an emphasis on marketing and not enough of an emphasis on quality and really knowing how to go there with clients and groups. And so, that's, at its core, what the work is about and the stealth mission, which is, you know, you said, like, what's really lighting me up. Underneath all of that, really at the end of the day, one of the things that all of the trainings and work that I do, it helps people learn how to love and accept every little last part of themselves, not just the pretty parts, but the unsavory parts, the parts that they have previously rejected, put into shadow by learning these deeper techniques, by going through it themselves. We're all learning how to love and accept ourselves and others more deeply. And to me, that's the most exciting thing I could be doing.

Marli Williams [: 00:05:24

I mean, that's really the essence of the work. And I think that that's what makes your work so unique is your commitment to really high-level service of, you know, like, how do you fill retreats or how do you get speaking engagements. I always say, like, be really good at what you do. And I feel like underneath, it's like, how do I help people be the best facilitators and coaches and practitioners and really have integrity around their work. And one of the things that I know is said in this transformation space is you can only take someone to the depth that you have also gone to. And so, it's like, yes, learning the modalities, learning the tools so that you can deliver that transformation for others, but actually applying that to your own work. If you're wanting to help people work through their shadows, have you worked through your shadows and this level of self-acceptance, self-knowledge, self-awareness, and our capacity to love ourselves will ultimately increase our capacity to really witness our clients and help them go to those places that we've been and being the mentor, being the guide, helping them, you know, to the top of whatever their mountain is because we've been there and, you know, we just need to be a few steps ahead. Like, the importance of doing that work on ourselves so that we can be of service for others.

Marli Williams [: 00:07:03

And I think you're such a stand for how important that really is, and I really appreciate that. And I think that one of the things that I love so much is just this idea of depth and going deep with people. And so, I'd be curious from your perspective of, like, what that actually means to take someone to the depths of who they are. You know, for those of you out there who, you’re a transformational leader, coach, mentor, facilitator, or someone who's personally wanting to do the work. And this idea of, like, I want to go deep. And I hear that all the time of, like, I don't just want to stay on the surface level because I think one of the hard parts about the self-help space and self-improvement is that intellectually, we can understand our shadow. Intellectually, we can understand motivation, goal setting, setting intention. Like, intellectually, I feel like it's like, just do it. Just put yourself out there. Just market. Just have confidence. Right? Like, intellectually understand, like, oh, I need to have confidence to have a sales conversation. My really good friend, Lisette, says we get what we believe at the deepest level.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:08:22

I love that. Yes.

Marli Williams [: 00:08:24

And so, how do we take people to the depths? What does that look like? What does that mean? We can jam on that.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:08:30

Yeah. So, you know, you already spoke to some of it and I'll just pull on some more of the pieces. Every now and again, we might, as practitioners, be able to luck out with a client and stay on the surface. They say they have a goal. We strategize out vision out the goal, we strategize out the goal, and then the client goes and does it, you know, or maybe mentions I'm a little scared of this, and we talk about it for, right? And but they're still able to do it. That's amazing and also the exception to the rule. Human beings are messy. Right?

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:09:06

We come with our beliefs. We come with our fears. We come with our hidden shadows. We come with our resistances. And as practitioners, if we're not able to get into those crags in real ways, and like you said, not just cognitively, but somatically and in activating also the heart, and in activating the spirit, which I'll explain in a moment. If we're not able to do that, our clients are not going to take the actions. They're not going to move towards their goals. Not only will they end up feeling frustrated, but we're going to end up questioning ourselves of, like, am I good? Alright. The dreaded, am I good enough? Am I a fraud? Did I take their money and, you know, all the things. And am I living in my purpose? So, when we're able to go deep, to me, what that means is we're not going deep just, like, for naval gazing purposes.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:10:07

Although, I like to do that sometimes too. I'm very philosophical and a little obsessed with myself. But, you know, in our work with clients, we're going deep so that we can help our clients soften up and loosen up all of the obstacles that are in their way of taking action, of showing up for what they want, of being who they want to be. And in order to loosen all of those obstacles, you know, again, we can call them fear are the fears, fear of visibility, fear of acceptance. We can call them beliefs. I need to be this, you know, or I need to be that, and then shadow is much more complicated, but, you know, even pretending like they don't have parts of themselves that they do. So, we want to go deep in order to really engage with the fears, with the beliefs that are no longer helpful, and with the hidden and the repressed shadows so that not only can our clients cognitively understand themselves more. That's really important.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:11:20

We want that. So that also then from that cognitive understanding, support our clients in real ways to shift how their bodies, how their nervous systems are in relationship with those fears and those beliefs and those shadows. We're not trying to get rid of anything except for unhelpful beliefs, but we're actually not trying to get rid of fears or shadows. We're trying to get more regulated and grounded inside of ourselves so that we can move forward.

Marli Williams [: 00:11:50

Yeah. I appreciate that so much, and I've been doing a lot of deep work this year, and I went to a training. And they said the most powerful person in the room is the person with the most regulated nervous system. And so, everything that we did was essentially to activate our nervous system and learn to regulate. So, anything, like, the idea of doing a sales call can activate our nervous system. We're about to get on stage, that can activate our nervous system or deliver a webinar or a workshop or a masterclass or even before getting on a coaching call with a current client. And so, how do we cultivate this capacity within ourselves to understand what activates that, what our tendencies are, and learn how to regulate and understand our emotions, right? Or a piece of it, our intuition, our mind. How do we get into a state as a facilitator, as a leader that allows us to be of deep service ultimately, you know?

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:13:10

Yes. Absolutely. And parts of that work are about learning regulation practices in general and then part of that depth work is about learning how to engage with the fears and the shadows in a different way. And what I like to say is to befriend them to become friends with them. I think so often, we think, because culture tells us, get rid of the fear, banish the fear, vanquish the fear, will even release. That's not the goal. That's actually not the goal. The goal is to become better friends with it, to hold the fear in a regulated way so that you're still able to take action, and respond from that place. Because the thing is, I always like to say the fears in particular, we need them. So, I always use the metaphor of the smoke alarm. Right? We need the smoke alarm in the kitchen because there might be a fire. The problem is that sometimes the smoke alarm doesn't know the difference between a legit fire and burnt toast.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:14:28

But that doesn't mean we're going to take the smoke alarm out of the house. Right? We need to understand the smoke alarm better. So, when we go, that's just burnt toast or that was a fire 20 years ago, but for who I am today, that's just burnt toast, right? Versus, no. This is danger. I'm taking myself out of this situation.

Marli Williams [: 00:14:50

Right. And I love this idea of and I think it doesn't ever go away. Right? And our brains are wired for safety and survival, not possibility and performance. And this idea of like, it does have a job. It does have a role and it's just making sure that it's not driving the car. Right? Like, Elizabeth Gilbert has this beautiful excerpt from her book Big Magic called The Road Trip, and she just talks about, you know, fear, I know you're a part of this family, but you're not allowed to touch the maps. You're not allowed to touch the radio, you know, all of that. And so, you're forbidden to drive. And so, it's like you are going to be here. And especially like, you want to take things to the next level or you want to get on these sages. It's not about, like, I think that this illusion of people waiting for that fear to go away, it's never going to happen. And so, yeah, can I learn to be with it and, like you said, to befriend it so that I can move through it, not get over it and not release it, but be with it in a way that it serves me rather than stops me. And to one of my mantras is my desire to be of service is greater than my fear.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:16:13

I love that.

Marli Williams [: 00:16:14

And so, I'm more committed. You know, if one of my fears is getting it right and looking good, my desire to be of service has to kind of like be above that. I've had funny mantras in my head over the years. Like, even my worst workshop could change someone's life. Even my worst talk could change someone's life. And I'm not trying to go for, like, I don't want it to be bad, but it's like, I'm more committed to serving people than, you know, the ego really wants to, like, the perfectionism, the people pleaser. I want everybody to get it and like it and have breakthroughs and transformation. What if they don't? And what if they want their money? You know, all the fears. And it's like, well, what if? Okay. Let's go there. What if I bomb? What if I forget my line? What if I mess up?

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:17:06

Exactly. I can still be safe. I can completely bomb and still be safe.

Marli Williams [: 00:17:12

That ability to kind of in source our sense of safety rather than outsource it. Right? Like, I'm only safe if everybody in this training loves me, you know, versus like, I'm safe no matter what and I'm committed to being of service and I have to cultivate that because when we outsource that, that's when we, I don't think can be as in service.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:17:42

Completely and part of the work for ourselves and I love how you're speaking to the difference between outsourcing and insourcing. And I think that part of the work for ourselves and also when we support our clients and our group participants with this, you know, another way to say what you're saying is as follows. When we were younger, we needed to outsource because we didn't have the internal resources yet to feel safe in certain situations. Right? We literally were not safe unless we outsourced. And then oftentimes what happens is as adults, we're in a situation now. We go to be visible. Not everybody might like us. We might be rejected, and we forget that we have those inner resources now. Where in the moment, if we don't do this fear work and everything we're talking about, in the moment, we're slammed back to when we were 5 and literally, we needed to outsource for survival. Right? So, part of the work for ourselves and part of the work with clients is to actually create awareness between the then and there and the here and now and the resources that we did or didn't have back then versus the resources that we do have right now.

Marli Williams [: 00:19:03

I think that that's so important to recognize that, like, again, all of these things have served a purpose in our life at some point and that there's a quote that says, you know, what got you here won't get you there and recognizing and I think it's, again, saying thank you. Thank you for protecting me. Thank you for keeping me safe. And it's like, I got me. I have my own back. When people ask me, like, well, what do you do? It's like at the end of the day, I help people believe in themselves and trust themselves. That it's coming back to this, like, I'm safe no matter what. No matter what comments are under this video, no matter what someone says on a feedback form, I am safe.

Marli Williams [: 00:19:55

I am safe. And helping people regulate again, regulate their nervous system and come back to learning to in source that because I don't think it's a skill many people learned growing Up. And like you said, I always say, visibility is vulnerability. So, the more visible you are, the more vulnerable you are to people's opinions, their beliefs, their thoughts, their own ideas of what's right or wrong. And so, I think helping people learn to regulate their nervous system, in source that sense of safety so that they can be of service. And I think the more I've really learned how to do that as a facilitator, I really feel that I'm able to serve at a higher level. And I think when I started out, I was really coming from a people pleaser perfectionist mindset of, like, this, again, look good, get it right, I want everybody to get it, and taking on this giant responsibility of this, I want everybody to get it.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:21:01

Yeah. The I want everybody to get it. I mean, there's so many things in what you just said. I'm going to, like, pull on this last piece. The I want everybody to get it is a depth killer. It is a vulnerability killer and it is a possibility killer within a container because the moment that as leaders, as facilitators, we go in with everybody needs to love and resonate and get everything that I say or else I am a failure, you know, because that's usually where we go. Right? Or else I am a failure and I'm not good enough and whatever.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:21:40

What happens when we're not fully present to what actually is showing up in the room. And aside from the fact that it's okay if not everybody gets everything, I've been to plenty of workshops as a participant where I haven't resonated with everything, but I've still received value. Right? So, even that fact aside. When we're not present then and we're thinking everybody needs to get it, when someone shows up with resistance, for example, I don't like that idea or that doesn't work for me or whatever it is, then we as facilitators, we're not in our best selves to hold space for that individual in that moment. The thing that is unfortunate about that, and that's why I'm saying it's like a killer of possibility, is usually when resistance comes up in the room, that's when the deepest greatest learning for that individual and everybody else is possible. Like, the next breakthrough. And bigger breakthrough is right there if the practitioner is willing to meet it and not be defensive and show up with an open heart to hold the space for that.

Marli Williams [: 00:23:01

I think that that is just, it's the essence of what it means to be I call it emergent facilitation of can I be with what is emerging in the space versus being attached to the outcome that I think that they should or are supposed to get.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:23:20

How I think it needs to look.

Marli Williams [: 00:23:22

Yeah. It's supposed to look this way. We get attached to that. Everyone on this retreat is going to get along. Everyone's going to have a breakthrough. All these things then when people don't get along or there's resistance to an exercise, then, yeah, we can get really thrown off versus like my only job is to meet the moment and to be of service and to be with what is coming up right now. I think about it as, how do we resource ourselves as leaders and facilitators to show up and meet the moment. And a lot of people come to me and I'm sure come to you is like, oh, I want to map out my retreat or have an agenda, you know, and finding this sweet spot or this balance of, you know, having a framework, having enough of a container to hold the journey while also being able to meet people where they're at, and meet what is arising for people without being like, we have to go to the next thing because at 2 o'clock, it says we're doing this. Right? And how to find that balance as facilitators. I think that I have a lot of conversations with people about that, what that sweet spot looks like. Because some people really want an agenda. I personally, I could, like, lead things without an agenda. I create an agenda for other people. But then I'm like, but there's so much magic that happens when there's spaciousness for all of the in between moments as it were. You know?

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:25:05

It's so true. I need both. So, as a Virgo, I like to have a plan. And at the same time, number 1, you're already speaking to this. Less is more. I always tell people when they're helping them develop curriculum, I say it over less is more. Less is more. Less is more.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:25:27

You want to just save so much time for sharing, for coaching, for letting, like, you're saying what wants to emerge. And I think there's so many beliefs that go into being a masterful facilitator. And one of the beliefs that I think helps with less is more and creating more space. In addition to what we were just talking about, you know, not to be scared of what comes up is to remember that the power of a group program or a group retreat or, you know, a group workshop is mainly in the group. So often, facilitators forget this or don't know this, and they think I'm the most important person in the room or my curriculum is the most important element in the room or the teaching is the most important. And those are very important, but when we come to our groups with that belief, we're not leveraging the most incredible part of the group, which is the group, the wisdom in the group, the vulnerability in the group, what's going to emerge from the group, the energy, the connections among peers, all of that. When we remember that, I think it becomes a little bit easier to let the curriculum no matter how much we've developed it. And I still like to develop curriculum a lot, but to let it take a little bit more of a back seat to create.

Marli Williams [: 00:27:03

Yeah. I'm just getting back from leading a 6-day retreat down in Baja. And this retreat had the most space that I've ever had at any retreat. And, you know, there's a story in my head as the facilitator, like, I'm not doing enough because I'm, like, in the pool floating on a unicorn, like, having the time of my life, and I'm just like, should I be doing more, right? And went through the feedback forms this week, and they're like, I loved how spacious it was. And most of the feedback forms I've gotten in the past have been like, I would like more space, more free time, more time to integrate. We're in a beautiful place. People can take walks, and the group is where the magic happens, and it's allowing them to connect 1-on-1, connect in small groups to really create their own experience, and, ultimately, my job as the facilitator is to create the container for that to happen. So, I think it's really important on the front end of, like, what are we here for? What is this about? And, you know, we get curveballs. Right? Like, there was an ice storm. The plane door flew off. Like, there was 4 people of 12 that came a day late. And so, you know, how do I navigate that? How do I pivot? How do I, again, meet this moment and still build intentional container for transformation on the front end so that there can be this dance of spaciousness, value in the content and finding the sweet spot. And that's, I think, the magic of, again, having just enough of a plan without too much. And I always say subject to change.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:28:59

Always subject to change, and I'm totally chuckling and cracking up at myself as you're talking right now because you were talking about, like, being in the pool and the spaciousness in between sessions. And the reason why I'm cracking up, Marli, is because this is so your brilliance of, like, the having fun and the, like, the in between sessions with the space. When I was talking about space, that's not what I was talking about because I'm a workhorse. I make like, we're training. You know? We don't get much leisure in between, but there's a lot of spaciousness within the sessions for processing and sharing and getting coached and all of that. So, anyway, I'm just cracking up. Both are so legit, your way and my way, and it was making me think I need to lay on some more unicorn floats a little bit more during retreats.

Marli Williams [: 00:29:56

It's just so funny because it's really uncomfortable because it's like, oh, I have to be doing more. And people kept coming up to me, and they're like, I'm having the time of my life. And I'm like, awesome. Like, I'm just hanging out here. And I said to somebody because they were talking about, I work with a lot of people who maybe are 1-on-1 coaches and they want to do group coaching. I talk about, like, the magic of the group and who you curate and who's in the room and who your audience is. And I said, imagine I mean, like, I know I'm pretty great, but imagine if you were just to come to Baja and hang out with just me for 6 days.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:30:35

Not as much fun for as amazing as you are.

Marli Williams [: 00:30:37

Not as much fun. The value is in who's in the room. And as a facilitator, how do I again, I love the root word of facilitate which is facile, which is to make easy. How do I make it easier for this group to learn from and grow from each other. And what do I do to set that up, to tee it up? Because I also say just because people are in the room it doesn't mean they're going to connect. And it doesn't mean they're going to connect at a deep level. So, what do I do to, again, set the tone? And we've talked about, like, how to create a container for transformation? At the beginning of whether it's a virtual program, an in-person retreat, a workshop of, like, what are some of your hot tips around creating containers? Because I know that this is something that you talk a lot about in your work and how important it is on the front end to set that tone so that the magic can unfold.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:31:45

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's so important too because, like you're saying, people don't always get along or they don't always agree or they're not always BFF, but when people tell me this about my spaces all the time, when you set the container in an intentional way, then when you uphold the container while people are in session and even having lunch, outside of session, whatever, it's going to create an environment where for the most part, people respect each other. They honor each other. They will connect, you know, as much as they, you know, much more, I'll say, than otherwise. Right? So, it might not be BFFs, but people will honor and respect each other and respect each other's opinions and experiences so much more when that container is set and upheld. So, so many different things that go into setting a container, but a couple of just quickie things to think about.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:32:58

Number 1, towards the beginning, after people have settled and, you know, maybe you've grounded them, you've bought everyone present, don’t just dive into your 1st exercise. Right? Like, do some things. And one of the first things that I always encourage leaders and facilitators to do is to speak to the shared goals of the group. Right? So, when you create that inspiration in the beginning, even though you've got however many different people and different personalities and different whatever in the room, when you speak to the shared goals and the shared possibilities and the shared intentions and then within that, speak to how people are also similar. Like, I know, for example, my people, they're all smarty pants. Right? We're all here are smarty pants. We're all transformation nerds.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:33:52

Ethics are important, like, one of our all of our top priorities. Right? So, when you speak to the shared intentions and what's shared in the room to begin with right away, it's going to create a connection. Like, we for this moment in time, we're a tribe and tribes stick together. Right? So, that's one really, really important thing. Then the next important thing is also to speak to the differences. Right? And we're also not the same and to speak a little bit and honor and acknowledge that, so, so important. So, we want to speak to that and to how because of those differences, we're going to be interacting with each other. Right? So, you might come from this background and you have this perspective, but that's not necessarily true for everybody else. So, don't make assumptions, right, before you speak, before you share. Remember, there are different backgrounds here. They're different. So, you know, some of those logistics’ things, speaking to resistance. Right? So, so important. You might not like something that we're about to do. You might not want to do this exercise. Fear might come up. You might start noticing that you're rolling your eyes at what somebody else says or what I'm saying, as the facilitator, you might want to leave the room. Right? So, first to normalize the full range of resistance because it happens for all of us. Right? And if we come in as facilitators thinking that that's not okay, energy follows energy. It's going to show up for people, right, but then they're going to think it's not okay. But if we name in the beginning, this has the potential to show up, it's totally normal. It's usually just a symptom of a fear coming up. It means you're in it, you know, and you're in the process. This is how you handle it, right, to speak to all of that, then all of a sudden, it just that is another just thing that shores up that container, helps people be more present, helps people feel connected to each other.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:36:07

Of course, you want to do some exercises in the beginning where different people are going to just start to talk and share and connect. So many more things I can say, but for right now, what I want to kind of umbrella all of these container setting pieces with is what is most important beyond the do this and then do this and then do this is who we as facilitators are being when we show up to set the container. Our energetics are the most important thing. So, if we're showing up as leaders and you're not willing to be vulnerable, there is no way that we can expect anybody else in the circle to be vulnerable. If we're showing up as leaders and we don't trust other people in the group, there is no way that we can expect for there to be trust in the container. If we show up and we don't trust ourselves, how can we expect anyone to trust us.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:37:22

But one of the biggies on energetics, and this helps with group dynamics, with containers, all of the things, it is essential for us to show up and understand that no person in the room, including ourselves, is more powerful than anyone else. Must show up with an energy of an equal playing field that I, as the facilitator, am no better than anyone else in the room. And also, a lot of times, we're scared other people are better or have more power or going to overwhelm us, also showing up with the understanding that nobody else is more powerful than me. Now as a leader, I have unique leadership capabilities. I have to hold the space. I'm holding the rules. I'm directing some things. I have a different role than everybody else in the room, but there is no hierarchy here. If we come in truly embodying shared power, that's what's going to happen in the community and in the circle and everybody will share power with each other.

Marli Williams [: 00:38:38

Yeah. I appreciate that so much of, like, as leaders and facilitators who we're being is the most important thing. It sets the energy. I talk about this idea of you get to bring the weather and, like, what weather do you want to bring to this space? And you're really setting the tone, setting the temperature, creating this idea of a container, I think about it as like, and this is how can I open it? We get to co create a magical universe over the next 6 days together. And what do we want inside of this magical universe? Because out in the world, there's all sorts of different agreements that people different unspoken agreements that everybody has. We are going to intentionally co create how we want to show up for each other, for this experience so that everybody gets what they need. Everyone feels seen and heard.

Marli Williams [: 00:39:38

And so, it's like, I talk about this idea of community agreements, community expectations, group norms, whatever you want to call them. And it's really like, what is the world that we want to live in? And we get to practice being in that world with and for each other over the next 6 days, over the next 6 months that we have in this group container together. Right? And so, asking for people's input and some people might say, like, respect. And then you might write that down versus what does respect mean? What does it look like? What does it sound like? What does it feel like? How do you know when you're respected or not? Trust. Great. What does trust look like in this space? And I think instead of just having these, like, big words, we want trust and collaboration and, you know, respect. It's like really helping each other articulate that. And, again, from that shared power, at the end of creating those, it's like, whose responsibility, is it? Is it mine? Or is it ours? We created it together and we get to live into this.

Marli Williams [: 00:40:47

And also giving people the tools like, what if we're not? Because guess what? We're human. We're flawed. We're going to mess up. Things are going to happen. And one of the likes, I like giving people tools in advance of I'm noticing there's a handful of people who talk a lot. I'm wondering if those people that are talking more than others, if they can step back and other people can invite that, or let's get into smaller groups more often than the big group if not everybody is comfortable sharing in that space. So, it's like giving people tools to bring that up either in the group or to me so that because oftentimes, I think we set these agreements at the beginning and then, like, they're on some paper that no one ever looks at ever again.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:41:35

They're not actually living.

Marli Williams [: 00:41:36

They're not actually, like, a living, breathing document. And I would love to ask you a question. I know we're kind of getting towards the end of our conversation together. But, like, you work with a lot of high-level coaches and leaders and facilitators and, you know, people that come to my retreats are similar. And one of the things that is interesting is this idea of and we put this on our community agreements is no unsolicited coaching, advice, or feedback because we're all here, and it's like, we all want to help each other. And yet, you know, as a leader and a facilitator of, like, okay. You're trusting me to hold the space, but there are brilliant people here and I love it when people help each other. But there's, like, a balance to that, and I don't know if there's anything that you do just like some high level I don't know. That's like a probably a whole other podcast.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:42:34

Yes. There's so much. Again, I'm like, okay. I’m only going to pick 1 or 2 of the things because I think there's a lot. There's actually a lot that goes into it. Right? So, I'll just share a couple things. Number 1, to be really clear. When you're asking the group for a share, to be really clear on what the purpose of a share is, particularly, after an individual in the group has shared something really vulnerable. Sometimes after someone in the group shares something vulnerable, people's hands will go up. Right? And before I call on anyone in those moments, I'm going to say, I can't wait to hear. And what I want to hear from each of you is not any feedback or advice that you have for Marli, but instead, what really touched you about that share. What did you learn for yourself about that share? How does that share relate to you. Right? So that I'm already baking into the instruction what it is. When people go off into breakout groups and, you know, usually, the breakout groups, they're sharing things that have come up from an exercise that we've done together. I always give specific instructions. You'll have this many minutes to share.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:44:04

And then if you would like reflections from your partners, that is the moment for reflection. However, you might just want them as sacred witnesses to hold the space for you to express what came through and to be seen and heard. And some of the breakout rooms I say were not having reflections. It's just sacred witness time. So, what's important for us as facilitators is number 1, to give a really good instruction on this. Number 2, to not be afraid to interrupt someone. Right? Because even when we give crystal clear instructions every now and again, someone is still, you know, and, again, out of their own usually, out of their own, they really want to help, don't be afraid to interrupt someone with love, with respect, with honor, with kindness, but interrupt and say, hey. You know, I want to pause you there. Sounds like you have some really great and beautiful feedback for Marli, but we actually don't know if she wants that feedback right now. She just shared in a big way, and I would like for Marli to sit in the being seen with that. So, can you redirect and share with us?

Marli Williams [: 00:45:23

And I think that that is so important as a facilitator. It's like to create the safety is, like, the agreements on the front end, but then to maintain the safety. Is am I willing to pause people to redirect? And I think a lot of people like, oh, I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. But it's like my mission as a facilitator is, like, to really maintain the integrity of the group experience. That is my number one job is to, again, we set the container, and then we get to maintain that. So, there are so many things that you shared with us today that I think are just like gems and golden nuggets for anyone who is leading any groups out there of, you know, how do we tune up our own skills, how do we go to our own depths so that we can walk people through that and, you know, create these beautiful containers for transformation. So, I just want to thank you for this conversation for your work in the world. I would love if you have any final thoughts to share with our audience and where people can find you and learn more about your work. And if they want to dive into their depths, where can they do that with you?

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:46:38

Sure. Yes. And I've loved this conversation. I feel like we covered so many things.

Marli Williams [: 00:46:42

I know. We did. We did. It was so good. So juicy.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:46:46

So, just in terms of last thoughts, if there's just one, I think I'm going to end where I started, which is just for all of the leaders and the facilitators out there just to really remember that your whole and complete exactly as you are. You don't need anything more. All that you bring, all the parts are exactly what's needed for you as a facilitator to really serve your people. And I just really want to encourage everyone to keep on coming back to that knowing. You don't need to fix or change anything about yourself. It's about being you and being you and being you.

Marli Williams [: 00:47:29

So good.

Joanna Lindenbaum [: 00:47:30

My business or my website is called Applied Depth Institute, and so you can find me there at applieddepthinstitute.com. There's a whole blog with lots of information and content and inspiration. You can download lots of different free gifts for facilitators about working with shadow, working with resistance, and lots more.

Marli Williams [: 00:47:55

So many amazing resources and, you know, your work, your programs, I mean, I've been a part of them. I've had other people that I know do a lot of work with you and nothing but rave reviews all around. So, if you are interested in diving into your depths as a facilitator, really expanding your capacity to serve people in a really powerful way, definitely check out Joanna's work, and I'm constantly learning from you and your knowledge and your wisdom and just thank you for being you. Thank you for sharing your magic and your medicine for those that want to serve people in a really powerful and transformational way. I'm so, so honored to have this conversation with you, and thank you all for being here, for listening, and keep going out there and sharing your magic and medicine with the world. Until next time, we'll see you soon.

Marli Williams [: 00:48:49

Thank you for joining us on another inspiring episode of the Marli Williams podcast. We hope you're leaving here with renewed energy and valuable insights to fuel your leadership, coaching, and speaking endeavors. I'd love to invite you to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast to help us reach more aspiring leaders and speakers like you. We have more exciting episodes and remarkable guests lined up, so make sure to tune in next time. Until then, keep leading with purpose, coaching with heart, and speaking with conviction. This is Marli Williams signing off. See you next week.